Posts Tagged ‘covert stuttering’
Road To Empowerment- Episode 45
Posted on: February 10, 2011
Episode 45 features Perla Ernest who hails from Mexico, by way of the UK, Saudi Arabia, and Brunei. She is 23 years old, British/Mexican, and has a history of covert stuttering, except when she couldn’t hide it! Today, Perla views herself as a recovering stammerer.
Perla is an ambitious young woman. She wants to use her years of experience abroad to start her own business of cross-culture training. She sees a need to teach multi-cultural norms and differences in a global business world.
Perla and I were introduced by Maria McGrath, featured in Episode 38. Perla shares how the McGuire therapy program changed her life. Perla explains many of the basic tenets of the McGuire program, including breathing and voluntary stuttering.
Listen in as we discuss career goals, communication and covert stuttering. Perla tells some great stories about the elaborate avoidance techniques she used to keep her stuttering hidden. Perla poignantly shares the story of how the mother of an ex-boyfriend who referred to her as “Perla the Stammerer”, and how that jolted her out of her belief that she had hidden her stammering successfully.
We also discuss inspiration, empowerment and leadership. And we talk about rock bottom and acceptance. Perla hopes to bring the McGuire program as an option to people who stutter in Mexico.
Credit for the podcast safe musical clip”Scott Waves to April With Salty Grace” goes to ccMixter.
Feel free to leave comments for Perla (or me). Feedback is a gift!
Letting Go Of Fear – Episode 43
Posted on: January 27, 2011
Episode 43 features Elaine Saitta, who hails from Seattle, Washington. She has been an active member of the National Stuttering Association (NSA) for many years. She has held several NSA positions such as Chapter Leader, Regional Chapter Coordinator, Board of Directors member, and Executive Director.
Elaine is a SLP in the Seattle school system and also works in private practice with children who stutter. She coordinates a teen support group as well as youth and adult workshops locally and nationally.
She believes in being open about her stuttering and educating others. But that wasn’t always the case! Like many people who stutter, Elaine was covert for a long time. Even though her stutter was mild, she was always very embarrassed and felt shame. She shares that she didn’t have the tools to talk about stuttering and her feelings.
Listen in as we talk about how and what changed for Elaine. Meeting other people who stutter had a profound affect on her perspective and her very sense of self. Elaine also shares “the conversation” she always wanted and needed to have with her dad. And she talks about the journey and how she arrived at acceptance.
We wrap up with how being more open to life’s experiences in general can broaden one’s life. I prompt her to share her recent solo journey to China and how letting go of fear enabled that. How powerful those four words are – letting go of fear!
Speaking of that, Elaine was recently featutred on NPR in Seattle to raise awareness on stuttering! Check it out here!
Feel free to leave comments or just let Elaine know what a great job she did. Feedback is a gift!
Credit for the music clip “Echoed” used in this episode goes to ccMixter.
Why It Matters – Episode 41
Posted on: January 17, 2011
Episode 41 is a departure from the usual format of this podcast. A woman of strength and courage, Irina, whom we met in episode 16, takes the microphone and the lead and invites me to tell some of my story.
This felt strangely awkward, but I was so glad that Irina was the one asking the inviting questions. We have become friends and share a lot in common. We had to do the Skype session twice, because the first time we had such a poor connection between New York, USA and Burgas, Bulgaria.
I hail from Albany, New York and have been “out” about my stuttering for about four years. My whole life changed in an instant in 2006, when I was fired from a job due to stuttering. That rock bottom moment helped me find resources and support, and my voice. Turns out, I always had a voice, but just didn’t know it.
Listen in as I share what it has been like for me going from “covert to overt”, how stuttering has affected me both personally and professionally, and how I really am not the same person I was just four short years ago. Irina invites me to share how and why I started this unique space for women who stutter, and how this has changed me as well.
I am proud of my journey and have no idea where it may take me next. I look forward to whatever it may be. And I am grateful for what I have learned from the strong, beautiful women from all over the world I have met. My heart and soul has been touched by each of you. Thank you!
Credit for the podcast safe music clip “Fire Babies” goes to ccMixter.
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A covert stutterer posted this question on one of the email groups. It generated lots of discussion and opinions. Another covert woman asked how do we actually show our stuttering at a Toastmasters meeting and “let the cat out of the bag”. This is what I shared as a response, not realizing that I had remembered this so clearly.
One of the best topics for a person who stutters to give a speech on is stuttering. That’s how I desensitized myself when I joined 4 years ago. My first speech the – “ice breaker” – I told my stuttering story, complete with how I tried to hide it, faking it, how I pulled it off, how it made me feel, etc.
The “ice-breaker” is supposed to be 4-6 minutes. Mine was 15 minutes, because I got emotional and choked up, and did not think I could finish. There was this huge long pause – a wait, actually – and all eyes were on me. This was the first time I had ever told people I had been hiding stuttering all my life. I was fired on May 4, 2006 and I gave this speech on May 23, 2006.
While the room waited for me to compose myself, a funny thing happened. I could feel the energy in the room shift. No one was annoyed, no one was rolling their eyes, no one was being dis-respectful. In fact, I could feel most of them “willing” me to finish. I don’t think they were going to let me out of the room unless I finished.
No one said a word. It was utter silence for 1-2 minutes, which seemed forever, and I willed myself to plod along and finish. I swear I felt that energy pushing me to finish.
When I was done, they all clapped like they do for everyone as I walked back to my seat. By then, my heart was pounding and tears were streaming down my face. There was more silence, as everybody wrote little comments about how I had done and put them in a basket and passed them to me. Next, the person who had been assigned to be my formal evaluator stood up and gave his opinion of how I delivered my first speech.
As he spoke, fresh tears erupted, as I realized what I had just done. I had just done the scariest thing I could ever have imagined doing to a bunch of strangers. My evaluator, Jim (who became my unofficial mentor) stood at the lectern for a sec, then began his evaluation by uttering one word: “Bravo”.
He said he and every person in the room learned as much as they ever would that night about me, about my courage, my resilience, my desire to communicate, my writing skills and my spirit. He talked of things like wearing my emotions on my sleeve, risking being vulnerable, daring to be so personal in a first effort. He also reminded me of time limits, which I can laugh about now, and how I had started a journey that he hoped I would be compelled to finish.
People came up and hugged me after as the meeting got over, and I did not read the little slips till I got home. All of them said something similar – that is was one of the most inspirational first speeches they had heard.
A year later, I gave my 10th speech, and Jim was my evaluator again. He referred back to that night, and many of the same people were there. I still go over time a lot, I still get emotional when I share personal stuff, but that’s what makes for compelling speeches.
People want to hear things that are interesting. Even people who don’t stutter can relate to identifying fears, working to overcome them, doing things anyway, feeling struggle and triumph at the same time.
Lots of people in my club affectionately refer to “Pam’s first speech” as an example of what Toastmasters can do for a person.
In my remaining 9 speeches of the first level, I talked about stuttering twice.. One objective was to speak on something I had researched. So I spoke about the origins of stuttering, best estimates at causes, resources – including support and therapy. I demonstrated the different ways a person might stutter. That was easy. I knew how to stutter.
The other speech was on Voluntary Stuttering, as related to helping people get over fears. I related fear of water to a person gradually stepping in, getting their face wet, holding their breath, dunking in water, etc, and what a person afraid of heights might do. Then I explained how voluntary stuttering helps to break the fear someone may have of stuttering publicly. I had everyone try it with a partner and had them do repetitions on their names.
Tackling the fears we have at Toastmasters is as easy as talking about what we know best. When we talk about what we know best, its easy. We already know the material.
Sounds easy coming from someone who has already done it, but I will never forget how it felt when I made that first speech. My heart thumped, my chest heaved, my cheeks were warm, my eyes were moist. How it felt walking up to the front, how it felt walking back to my seat, how it felt watching everyone write those little feedback slips – WHICH I STILL HAVE – and how it felt to hear a veteran Toastmaster say in his evaluation that I had inspired him and others.
We all have a first time doing everything. Members of my club tell me all the time they still have their first comments slips, they still remember the anxiety, the fear, the relief, the PRIDE. Everybody feels it – stutter or not. Most people rank public speaking as the greatest fear, even over death. At a funeral, most people would rather be in the coffin than delivering the eulogy.
We all have to communicate in life. Toastmasters gives ALL OF US a place to practice, get feedback, and realize, that everybody has their own sweaty palms, dry throat, pounding heart, nervousness, desire to flee . . . . not just us.
Toastmasters has the potential to change lives. Check it out. Find a meeting near you and visit.
It’s Showtime – Episode 37
Posted on: December 9, 2010
Episode 37 features Veronica Lynch, who hails from Dublin, Ireland. Veronica and I share a history of being extremely covert, and then making the transition to overt stuttering. We are both contributing members of the Covert-S email group.
Veronica worked for 30 years with the Irish Airports Authority. She has recently retired, with her last position being Insights and Strategy Manager, of which she was very proud. Veronica worked her way up the ranks in her career, starting with a back room job that didn’t require much talking.
Listen in to a powerful conversation about covert stuttering, “the aha moment” and what it is like living a parallel life. Veronica and I have remarkably similar stories about how we arrived at acceptance, and Veronica shares hers in-depth in this episode. She shares about how being covert means often we have to “be on” and “act” like we are on performing on stage all of the time, which coverts know, can be just exhausting.
Veronica also shares about what the journey has been like having a child who stutters, and how helping her daughter is what ultimately helped her. Veronica also touches on the profound notion that “when the student is ready, the teacher will find you.”
Veronica has been very involved with self-help in Ireland, and is an Executive member of the Irish Stammering Association.
Podcast safe music used in this episode is ” Scott Waves to Salty Grace” by J. Lang and is credited to ccMixter.
Can you relate? Feel free to leave comments or questions for Veronica or just let her know what a great job she did!
Tug-Of-War
Posted on: December 6, 2010
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Remember playing this game as a kid? I never liked it. I didn’t see the point, and it always seemed I got rope burn trying to pull so hard. And as the game goes, the harder you pull, the more effort the other side expends so they can win.
Speaking of rope burn, I also remember as a kid sliding down some huge slide sitting on a burlap sack. I can’t remember where , but the memory just came roaring back. That experience was like a tug-of-war too. I remember feeling gloriously free careening down the slide, caressed and stung by the wind and having no worries during that fast and furious moment.
And then the moment at the bottom when I realized the ride was over and my butt had slid off the burlap sack and I had rope burn all up and down my legs. The price I paid for that exhilarating run. I wish someone had told me to wear pants!
I have discovered that you can also play tug-of-war with feelings. Someone reminded me that if I expect those close to me to know what I want and need without telling them directly, I will be disappointed. This is akin to mind-reading, which most of us don’t do very well.
I know this intellectually, but emotionally it is still often hard for me to be direct about my feelings and even identify what it is that I am feeling. There must be a way to strike a balance between the desire to show my feelings and pressing my autopilot button to conceal my truest self, which I did for a long time. It was my survival tactic.
Simply put, as I was gently reminded, I am not used to anyone showing care and tenderness toward me. I don’t know how to react, or how to let it in. I want to, but the feelings that rush up overwhelm me. They are a bittersweet mix of joy and sadness. Mourning, if you will, for not having felt genuine tenderness enough to know how to deal with it.
Feeling for real, and expressing how I feel, is still so foreign that I don’t trust it. I grew up thinking that if I let people know my true self, somehow they would get the upper hand, which everyone already seemed to have anyway. I have been told that this is common for children of alcoholics. There were no emotions expressed – everything real was repressed and avoided. That’s how I got so good at covering up my stuttering.
So this tug-of-war with feelings is vexing me now. It is not as easy to hide anymore. As I heal and continue uncovering and exposing my true self, people are coming in. I have been so used to holding people and feelings at arm’s length, that usually I don’t even notice I am doing it.
Maybe I can have that glorious feeling of careening freedom again, right smack into life instead of down a slide on my butt on a burlap sack . Maybe I will figure out how to avoid the rope burns. Or maybe I’ll just figure out how to stop pulling so hard.
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I was doing some cleaning up and ran across this printed piece that a student gave me years ago. She had told me that she was a really good “excuse maker”. As I read this over and reflected back (I was covert then about my stuttering), I think, “so was I “. But not ready to admit it.
I read this today and realize that I still make excuses. We all do. Take a look!
I was thinking about it but . . . I was going to but . . . I want to but . . . I wish I could but . . . These are the excuses we give for sitting on our butts. We tell ourselves we are waiting for something to happen. We tell ourselves something is missing. We tell other people we will do it, whatever it may be, but we never do. If you think what you need is not there, find it. If you cannot find it, make it. If you cannot make it, find someone who can. If you do not have the money to pay them to make it, get it done on credit. If you have no one to borrow from, ask someone else to borrow it for you. If you do not have credit, get some. If you cannot get credit, go out and do something that someone will pay will pay you for so you can pay for what you need. There are not “buts” so big they cannot be moved. Once you move the “butt”, everything else will follow.
Hmmm . . . I recall this student being 17 or 18 at the time. I thought she was so insightful for her age, having that and sharing it with an adult. Funny how its one of the things I saved and that I just happened upon today while in a reflective mood.
We cannot keep waiting for things to happen. We have to make them happen, or life will pass us by. Right? What is passing you by?
My Covert Career – Episode 34
Posted on: November 12, 2010
Episode 34 features Patrice Nolan, who hails from Bennington, Vermont. Patrice and I have been good friends since meeting at a NSA conference several years ago. We realized we only lived about an hour from each other, and have visited each other many times over the last several years.
Patrice has been a Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) in the Vermont and Massachusetts schools for 33 years. She is also a certified teacher for the hearing impaired. Throughout her career as a SLP, she has kept her stuttering hidden. Until attending her first NSA conference, Patrice didn’t even realize what covert stuttering was, despite being in the speech field.
Join us as we discuss what Patrice refers to as her covert career and how she has managed to pull that off as a SLP. She shares honestly about how much energy she has spent on avoidance and rehearsal, her main techniques to appear fluent. We discuss how listening can be compromised when constantly rehearsing what she is going to say.
Patrice also shares about her first therapy experiences as an adult, which she refers to as “The Other Side of the Table.” And we discuss a TV program that Patrice loved as a kid. It may have been the first weekly television program that featured a regular character who stuttered, depicted positively.
This was a great conversation with a friend, who realized that it was not as hard as she thought to share her story. Feel free to leave comments or ask questions or just let Patrice know what a great job she did.
Credit for the podcast safe music clip “Echoed” goes to ccMixter.
Eating Lightbulbs
Posted on: November 9, 2010
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Have you ever dealt with painful stuff that you just hoped would go away if you just ignored it? I used to be an expert at it – trying to push pain away, hoping it would just disappear. But sadly, it doesn’t work like that. We have to feel it if we are ever to move past it.
Part of the reason I was so good at being a covert stutterer was that I had learned from a very early age how to pretend everything was OK when it really wasn’t. How it felt to stutter, to struggle, to feel different, to not be able to talk about things.
The same with the childhood stuff. Covering up my mother’s alcoholism, my father’s abuse, and his crazy religious ideas, and not being able to talk about any of that, ever. Everything was covert, not just the stuttering.
I had myself convinced for a long time that if I just pushed the painful stuff away and denied it, that it never really existed. But it never went away, it just stayed buried in a deep down place. Lately its been surprising me by exploding all over, much like a dormant volcano when ready to erupt.
Funny how these things happen. You begin to work on one thing and you find yourself dealing with everything else. Opening Pandora’s box about stuttering has allowed an opening for the other stuff to seep out. I can’t process how I felt about hiding my stuttering all those years without also talking about how it felt to hide the other stuff too.
I had myself convinced that not feeling, being numb, was safer, easier somehow. I did not want to feel yesterday’s pain anymore. But what I have learned is this: in order to heal and keep moving forward, I have to feel those painful moments and give voice to those painful memories. I have done well with facing my fears and shame about stuttering, by talking about it and being open, not hiding any more.
Now I have to do the same thing with the other stuff, in order to continue my healing and rid myself of guilt. Maybe I really am on the path to forgiveness. Then I won’t have to be so uncomfortable with feelings anymore. Because that’s what most of my journey has been about – being numb and not dealing with feelings.
J has been helping me with this. As we go deeper and deeper into that inner space of mine, the feelings are coming up. I have been really angry at my parents for a long time, and sad for that little girl that I still identify with, who was lonely and scared and confused.
When these feelings surface, and they have more and more lately, J pushes me to identify what I feel. I used to just swallow the feeling, push it down, but now I am letting myself feel, even when it causes real pain.
I talked with friend Jill recently and we shared some deep stuff. She used the phrase “eating light bulbs”. I knew exactly what she meant. Every time I feel the wave of sadness or anger or guilt come up, I feel like I am swallowing shards of a light bulb or a Christmas ornament that was dropped.
Tiny, jagged pieces of glass ripping at my throat and insides as I swallow. It hurts. But it hurt way back then too and I need to acknowledge it. Maybe that’s what I am learning here – how to eat light bulbs the right way.
Episode 32 features Leana S. Wen, who currently lives in Boston, MA. She was born in China and lived in Shanghai until she was 9,when her family moved to the United States.
Leana is a resident physician at the Harvard Affiliated Emergency Medicine Residency at Brigham & Women’s/Massachusetts General Hospital. A Rhodes Scholar and graduate of Washington University School of Medicine, Dr. Wen has worked at WHO and has conducted research in the UK, Rwanda, South Africa, and China. She is deeply interested in public health and influencing world health policy.
From 2005 to 2006, Dr. Wen served as the national president of the American Medical Student Association, which has over 65,000 members. At that time, Leana recalls deeply reflecting on her stuttering. She had many public speaking challenges and worried if she had what it took to be a physician and president of the prestigious AMSA.
Listen in to an inspiring conversation about covert stuttering and confronting fear,and learning how to be a person who stutters. We also chat about focusing on fluency to the detriment of other things and why she sought speech therapy as an adult.
In spite of her accomplishments and her acceptance of stuttering, Leana honestly admits that it is very hard to show stuttering to her colleagues in medicine.
Besides being a wonderful speaker, Leana is also a dancer and a gifted writer. Check out this blog she co-wrote for the New York Times, Two For The Road. She also wrote about her stuttering journey for the National Stuttering Association’s May/June issue of Letting Go 2008. Leana’s article is on pages 4-5.
Credit for the podcast safe music clip “Echoed” goes to ccMixter.
Feel free to leave comments or questions for Leana. And for Pam – it is important for me to get feedback too!
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I was honored to get an email from a reader of the Covert-S email group asking permission to share the article I wrote about kids who stutter on her blog. Liana shared that she does not stutter, but has friends who do, so she subscribes to several of the stuttering lists to learn more about stuttering.
How great is that? She wants to understand more about stuttering so she can better support her friends. So she asked me if she could re-post my story on her blog – Liana’s Place – A Blog About Life, Lies, Laughter and Love. Of course, I gave permission. Great to have more potential readers. And greater that she asked for permission. Lots of people on the internet just pilfer other people’s content without permission nor do they give credit.
Of course, I checked out Liana’s blog, and found it to be a wonderful place. Liana is a published author who has won awards for her romance novels. But she does more important work by writing and blogging the story of a friend’s faith journey.
She writes weekly about her friend Louis. He was a covert stutterer for a long time, but now stutters openly. Liana shared with me that my published story reminded her of things that Louis had shared with her about his stuttering. Liana’s writes on Fridays about Louis and gratitude and inspiration.
I am honored to be featured as a guest on Liana’s blog today, Sunday October 24, 2010. Talking about stuttering anywhere gets the word out and raises awareness. Thanks Liana and please say hello to your friend Louis for me!
Addendum: I have included some comments that I received directly from readers of the TU article, and also some comments from Liana’s blog, from readers who don’t stutter (with her permission of course).
“G” Is For Guilt
Posted on: October 4, 2010
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There is a thought-provoking article on this year’s ISAD conference about chronic sorrow. It is a personal story written by Scott Palasik. He shares how he found out that his parents, especially his mother, blamed themselves for his stuttering and carried around an enormous amount of guilt for many years.
I commented on Scott’s paper and we wound up sharing back and forth about how we had similar parent stories. I highly recommend you read Scott’s story – it resonated with me and I am sure it will with a lot of you.
I have written about guilt on here before, but not in the way that Scott’s poignant story reminded me. I know my mother has carried around a lot of guilt for many, many years. She has told me she feels tremendous guilt for what we dealt with as children. She is an alcoholic, and proudly in recovery now. She helps many, many people who have been touched by alcoholism.
She didn’t achieve sobriety until I was in my late teens. Childhood was chaotic, because mom drank all the time. We tried to act like everything was ok, but it wasn’t. My siblings and I covered for her all the time. Covertly, much like my stuttering became. My mother and I have had some conversations about the impact alcoholism had on all our lives, but those have been strained, quick, clipped.
But we have NEVER talked about stuttering. NEVER. The few times I have tried, she has always quickly changed the subject. I learned from a sister, or maybe even in a hurried conversation with my mother (I don’t remember), that she always felt guilty that she didn’t stand up to my father and insist that I be allowed to participate in speech therapy.
I have often wondered what a heart-felt conversation about stuttering would be like with one of my parents. Because I have never talked with my father about it either. I have always wanted to know what they thought. Were they confused? Did they know it was stuttering? Were they embarrassed? Were they ashamed? (Like I have thought!)
Was it easier for them to pretend there was nothing wrong? Did anyone ever talk to them about it? What did the relatives think? Why was it kept so hush-hush? Was it that bad?
Have any of you ever thought about any of this?
Giant in Chains
Posted on: September 30, 2010
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In a recent chat with friend “A”, about stuttering of course, we found ourselves talking about self-esteem. We both have felt shame and embarrassment at different times due to our stuttering. And we agree that feelings of shame is a reason people who stutter try to keep it hidden.
“A” wanted to know what things were like for me earlier in my journey, when I wasn’t as comfortable with myself as I am now! In my twenties and thirties I had a hard time with general acceptance because I didn’t like a lot of things about myself. One of those things was stuttering and I always thought it was the main reason why I had such a low opinion of myself. I referred to myself as having low self-esteem at the time.
“A” challenged me to think about this another way. He likened stuttering to being a “giant in chains”. He described having felt unable to achieve his full potential because stuttering held him back.
So he wondered if stuttering resulted in low self-esteem or just an inability to realize our potential because we let the stuttering get in the way. “A” said he felt like a giant with so much potential inside him, that went untapped, because he wasn’t able to communicate the way he wanted.
I think a lot of my potential went unrealized. I let stuttering make decisions for me back then. I always wanted to be a teacher. But I let stuttering, or more correctly, my fear of stuttering, make me steer clear of that. I settled for a career that I thought would involve less talking. (Which of course turned out completely wrong!)
I also settled for a relationship that was never truly right for me. I had such a fear that no one would ever love me. And my stuttering was such a part of that.
I wonder . . . can you relate to this? Did you ever feel you had poor self-esteem when it was actually unrealized potential? And have you let stuttering make decisions for you that you would completely choose differently if given a second chance?
If given a second chance, I would definitely have pursued becoming a teacher and I would not have stayed so long with someone who was not right for me, in all the important ways!
Fort of Shame- Episode 24
Posted on: September 10, 2010
Episode 24 features Mady, a student at Cal State University Northridge, in Los Angeles, California. I got to know Mady at the 2009 NSA Conference in Scottsdale, AZ. We have since become face book buddies.
Mady is studying psychology and wishes to combine research of stuttering and anxiety in her eventual doctoral program. Mady is also a wonderful writer and enjoys photography.
Listen in as we discuss Mady’s “seasons of stuttering” and how she dealt with denial and covert behaviors. She shares feelings about being secretly conflicted and broken about stuttering, and how she found a good therapist who helped her make sense of those feelings.
Mady also freely shares how she built a “fort of shame” – which she describes as hating something so much that you try to protect yourself against it. She describes how it started to corrode her.
Musical credit for the podcast safe clip “Scott Waves to April’s Salty Grace” goes to ccMixter.
As always, your feedback is encouraged and welcome. Let us know what you thought.
Episode 19 features Laura San Martin, who grew up in New York but now calls California home. Lori, as she is known to friends, is co-leader for the NSA Chapter in Los Angeles.
I met Lori at this year’s NSA Conference in Cleveland. I participated in a workshop that she and Joseph Diaz co-presented for teens about stuttering fears. Lori used examples from her own life to illustrate how she has learned to cope with fear.
Lori has an interesting story. Stuttering runs in her family, on her mom’s side. Four women in her family share the stuttering experience.
Lori is a civil engineer and she explains what that is for us non-engineers. She also candidly shares how she allowed her speech to somewhat dictate her career choice.
Listen in as we discuss covert stuttering, feelings about stuttering and the importance of having to be ready for therapy in order for it to really work.
We also discuss Sky Diving, which is Lori’s extracurricular passion! She talks about her first jump from the plane (sounds scary just typing it!), and what heightened senses and sensory overload feels like.
I feel so privileged to chat with such diverse women. It gives me goose bumps every time to realize that all that is needed is to ask and women keep telling these wonderful stories. Story-telling is magical.
Feel free to leave comments here on the blog for Lori. Feedback is important. It lets me know you are listening.
Musical credit for this clip of “Fireproof Babies” goes to ccMixter. As always, I use podcast safe music, under Creative Commons license.
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